Summer in Cosmopolis: Some Remarks and Announcements

13 Responses

  1. Ante says:

    Hey, hey I tend to like stuff about Aristotle and Guenon the most. I just have nothing to say and comment about it because I’m too dumb!

  2. tiwazmonk says:

    Your comment opposing conversion is rather troubling. In addition to contradicting the commands of Jesus it would also damn the majority of the world’s population to hell. It would also seem self defeating since traditionally Catholicism has sought conversions, this worked on your ancestors and is the only reason you are a catholic. Furthermore, this position would mean anyone who grew up in a secular, liberal society should remain secular and liberal.

    • Malić says:

      My comments could send to hell … ha, ha. I was pretty unequivocal about this being discussion of the knowledge on the level of words. If you convert to a religion as if it was a philosophical system and then leave it for some better system, you never converted at all.

      Furthermore, this position would mean anyone who grew up in a secular, liberal society should remain secular and liberal.

      No it wouldn’t, because it is not based on a belief system bought on the “free market of ideas” that starts from the supposition that everything else is a belief system that can be bought on the “free market of ideas”.

  3. tiwazmonk says:

    So was St. Augustine not really a Manichean or a Platonist before he converted to Christianity? Is his conversion to Christianity suspect because it was done on primarily philosophical grounds?

    As for the second part I was thinking more of an American. In America liberalism has become the tradition. Even most Christian denominations support it. For instance, Presbyterians even altered the Westminster confession of faith’s statement on the state to conform to America’s revolutionary principles. In such a society Liberalism is not just one ideology among many and to dissent from it is very often considered treason.

    • Malić says:

      So was St. Augustine not really a Manichean or a Platonist before he converted to Christianity? Is his conversion to Christianity suspect because it was done on primarily philosophical grounds?

      But when was that? There’s very little ground of comparison of our’s and Augustine’s world. For one thing, what we nowadays call conversion would in fact be reversion to a world that is largely being discarded. What makes someone’s conversion suspect in my eyes is when he or she takes his conversion to be a purchase of the new philosophical system and not the real change of heart. I imagine this to be harder for Americans for reasons you note below, but I find it also extremely hard to endure faux conversions of Westerners who immediately proceed to “reform” their religion of choice and are very liberal in using the word “heretic”, usually advocating some kind of “back to the roots” of tradition and such, only to swap the religion in a few years for something more “cool”. In my eyes this is not a conversion but the purchase of a new car, no matter what kind of intellectual subtlety was involved to masquerade the fact.

      I recommend Mihai’s article on this subject, written from the Orthodox perspective, to which I would have very little to add:

      Appropriation of Tradition in the West

      • Han Fei says:

        I can’t argue with that. A person very close to me jumped faith systems like creek stones. Then she called it “spiritual growth”. If someone flip flops from Judaism to Islam to Christianity to some new age mystical mumbo in a space of several years, then you can’t say such a person has improved in any way, but rather projects the muddle going on in their head. She’s really not a bad person otherwise though, but sadly repeats the common story of many of her kind.

        Of course I suspect that certain people genuinely never converted from anything at all. They simply don themselves in this or that spiritual garb in a way that a snake, regardless of the skin it sheds, underneath is always a snake. You know perfectly well whom I’m talking about so I shan’t name names.

        In order for conversion to count it has to be genuine. In the Biblical sense, those who entered into the People of the Faith underwent an inner spiritual transformation that touched upon the very core of their beings. The early Christian tradition involved an intricate and lengthy process for new initiates that lasted years. Traditionalist branches of extant Abrahamian faiths also to an extent reflect this through a lofty expectation of new converts to partake in the life of the Church. It isn’t like in America where you have idiots yelling on the street corners for people to embrace faith in Jesus right now or burn in everlasting hell. It was never a question of choosing to roleplay this or that belief system. People’s choice of tradition wasn’t a children’s game or a theatrical play like it’s seen now by scientifically enlightened majority, it was something that passed down with generation, interwoven deeply into the ethnic basis of the society.

      • tiwazmonk says:

        But for those who grew up in such secular households as to be almost completely lacking in any knowledge of Christianity or those who grew up in different religions, they still need to be converted and this would largely be done by Christians exposing them to principles of the Christian faith and sometimes through debate. I am aware that some people come to the faith through others means, and obviously nothing would be of any effect without the in working of the holy spirit, but the methods I mentioned above are still necessary and have biblical and patristic warrant.

        I would also like to thank you for taking the time to respond to me and apologize if I am just misunderstanding you.

        • Malić says:

          No need to apologize for misunderstanding. This is exceptionally difficult problem.

        • Han Fei says:

          Why did you assume that I had in mind who came from one “such” secular household? There was nothing secular about the origins of my family, we, like everyone else in our social sphere and community, were part of one religious tradition or another. The problem was that some of their search for higher spiritual identity sadly has an air of glib inconstancy to it which they justify as being indicative of some kind of personal growth. It’s a typical case of what Branko and Mihai have referred to many times.

          Obviously we shouldn’t act stupidly about what standards constitute one’s belonging or not. I myself have been on the bitter end of the exclusionist mentality which can easily arise from that. To the point where I have been largely excluded from the familial community to which I belong to by blood. But that doesn’t mean that conversion can simply held on the level of change in opinion, although I fear many liberal and progressive interpretations see it just that way. Bottom line being that if one means to convert, they should stick with their choice, and not have in mind shedding it as soon as they find a better looking proverbial shell to crawl into.

          • tiwazmonk says:

            My last reply was directed to Mr. Malic I had not seen your comment when I made it. The issue wasn’t about false conversion, I know they exist, but rather how he phrased one of his statements seemed to imply that we should not seek to convert others at all. My comments were addressing this latter point, as I think that seeking converts is not only necessary for restoring the western world, but more importantly because we are commanded to do so by our lord.

            Sorry for the confusion.

          • Malić says:

            No need for sorries. I meant to intervene, but Han beat me to it. When one does this off-hand podcasts without strict script, leaks tend to happen in precision department. So, let’s say it’s my bad. If you’re interested, follow KT and hopefully this problem will be clarified to the best of my abilities. It is a very difficult topic that tends to drag in the dangerous direction.

  4. Marko says:

    Branko, I love this site. The content is intriguing, the commentators briliant, and you always manage to make me laugh. But most of all, I enjoy the refreshing novelty of being the dumbest guy in the room. Hvala ti na vremenu i trudu koji ulažes. Svaka čast.

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